welcome to the we hack purple podcast where each week we interview a different and very interesting guest who has a different type of job within information security this week we are going to meet with Anshu Bansal the ceo of cloud defense because we want to know what it’s like to be the ceo of a product startup company abby aurora was supposed to be here today but due to the fires in california he is currently evacuating we promise to have him on next year in the meantime i want to thank our sponsor thread fix powered by denim group for being such a wonderful supporter of the we hack purple podcast and the entire we hack purple company i am tanya janca i am your host and now i would like to reveal to you our super awesome guest anshu here is anshu oh and i’m going to put myself on the screen too that’ll be even better there now we’re both here welcome hey tanya hi thank you so much for coming i appreciate you making the time especially considering what’s happening right now where you live my pleasure yeah thank you for inviting me oh my pleasure um for anyone that was expecting stephanie black this week she has had a personal thing happen and so we swapped the two guests so cloud defense was supposed to be on next year and so now stephanie black will be on in february everything’s good she’s totally healthy she’s going to live everything’s fine don’t worry she’s awesome but she couldn’t make it for work stuff reasons so and shu please tell me your name and you know if you have a handle or you know and tell me your job title and where you work sure my name is anshu pansal my twitter handle is adbabybash or you can reach out to me at cloud defense my i’m founder co-founder of cloud defense and uh right now operating as ceo plus many other heads you have all the hats you have literally a hundred hats when you’re a ceo okay so i have lots of questions so i’ve already explained to him that i’m gonna just pepper him with questions for a long time and and she was very kindly agreed to just let me ask him a dozen questions and so i wanted to just be up front and explain to everyone right away i already know anshu and work with him so i am a technical advisor at cloud defense and so if you feel there’s bias that’s because there is we like each other a lot and so so people are are wondering that’s the thing okay so and shu can you describe what it is like to be the ceo and a co-founder of a company making a product like what is that like sure yeah so first of all tanya you know i really love having you as a technical advisor and thanks for all of your mentorship so from my experience this is my second startup first one we started from right right from here where i’m sitting it was peer-to-peer tech platform car rental platform we ended up listing in public market so right now it’s trading in u.s uh nasdaq it’s about the currently i am working on the b2b product enterprise security product it just required a passion you know i i feel like nothing is hard if your right side of passion right set of team on your side and you are willing to take risk so yeah that’s what my advice is that is excellent advice can you tell me what a day in the life is like doing your job because your job i don’t know how to explain it like because there’s so many hats can you explain like what it’s like to do your job and i know with covid things are a bit different right now but what is it like yeah so now one thing i feel like you know this ceo or when you are heading something or starting up something there’s no hours or something you know you are just on the hook for everything like 24×7 you need to come up with things and then you need to just start you know doing things so right now we started last year we started very small with couple of guys who were not sure what they are doing we just had some idea uh we started validating then after that the product we came up with some first version of product uh gathered customers feedback tweaked the model multiple feedback loop iteration then after that we tested it with the small field testing so in my job role i think it requires many different heads you need to be understanding some business and you know you need to be connected with the right mindset right expertise and you need to have some vision so as long as like you have this and after that all it boils down to you know your product product market fit your customers and the product and the engineering so that’s what in my role lies into that i need to manage and kind of do myself sometimes go i need to code myself initially i was coding but right now i’m not getting time because you know getting a little bit busy busier so it’s a good good problem to have yeah so that’s that’s true that’s true would you say part of like a day in the life of being a ceo is going to lots of meetings yeah definitely it can already have your meetings and when you are small then you need to make sure that you know people who whom you have hired or whom are with you they trus means they have level of expertise they’re right fit for the role right when you’re especially exposed to the customers and these customers currently our demographic of customers are large multi-billion dollar organizations these are you know the organization with thousand two thousand or uh fifty thousand people so when especially dealing with these customers it requires lots of kind of expertise yeah so that’s that’s but it requires definitely you know sometimes one-on-one conversation with customers so that you are address understanding their pain point and also providing your solutions to them and they’re satisfied do you know everyone at your company i know everyone by name right yeah and that’s what i feel like okay so i am briefly supposed to tell everyone that i have a book i wrote a book and it’s called allison bob learn application security and shu did you order a copy of my book see he was a brilliant human and he bought it so everyone else should and i have now checked my marketing box i know and and she’s going to teach me about marketing it’s true it’s true but i want to talk about i want to talk about you more what types of personality traits do you feel someone needs to be good at being a ceo and starting a company so you said you have to be able to talk to people so that’s obvious but like do they need to be a good leader perhaps well yeah so definitely it you need to be a good leader i feel like for a startup startups and jobs are two different things let’s say if you’re working for a large enterprise or you go home go to happy hour sleep even the company’s on fire you know you’re still getting a paycheck second thing is start of mind i think you my experience and this is just my experiences be you don’t need to have all the skills you know you don’t have to have any just vertical and you are too good to in too good and but you need to have all sort of skills right it requires business negotiation it requires engineering negotiation requires product initially you need to build it by yourself but as long as i feel like you can become a billion dollar multi-billion dollar company just by building a candle which is behind your desk right candle companies these companies are multi-billion dollar companies could be so everything is possible but the passion so founders and the employees the only one is stretch line employees are very smart very expert they can solve xyz these many problems but there is a thin line between founders mentality and employee mentality founders they have passion that passion as long as you have passion you know you will be successful it’s a journey it’s it’s a step-by-step process so that’s that’s what my motivation is and founders they don’t work for money money is not the main motivation for founders it’s the ultimate goal because if you’re a founder and you are starting a company you know and money is the first thing you will never start a company because in a when you start company there is nothing you sure it’s all ambiguous you are not sure what you are doing yeah well and there’s just there’s a lot of risk that you’re taking like when i decided last year i wanted to start a company my mom was very much so against and she’s like can’t you just get a nice job at a nice company like you already work at a nice company why would you leave a nice big company don’t they they pay you lots like how much is enough and i’m like it’s because of the excitement of creating a thing that you really want to exist and put into the world yeah so obviously means i think it’s a different side different kind of thinking right so for example you know some generations or some you know people in my parents they think that’s how they we have been groomed nurtured in the by looking at movies or by looking at the books that you go you study you get a job you have family you have a nice job nine to five or something you know you go on vacation and drive a nice car yes founders are full of risk because you are not sure this is my second company you know first one and before that was not the first one which got successful before that i have failed many startups we were so founders if you’re a founder and if you want to do a startup it’s a full of risk but you have to just click it once you know my past failure and the last success it just had to click once right once it clicks then it’s all set now i’m i have become a tech investor by myself i’m investor into many companies like xlb i love them reddit robinhood and many things right so that’s the thing if you wanna with employee you cannot i it’s hard to get that kind of life right because uh if you are a founder it’s a possible everybody has a shot and i’m sure you can make it oh my gosh i i wish that you had given me this talk last year before i started my company because i was like i can do this but i still felt very scared and i feel like that’s such a good like pump up speech so i i like this this is very good so so you’re a ceo and you said you used to have to code now you don’t have time what type of technical skills do someone need to be the ceo of a startup company do they need to know how to code so it depends what’s your role is right or what kind of startup you are doing so uh having the industry knowledge which always help you otherwise you need to look into other shoulders right so it’s a good chicken in the egg in the chicken problem right who came first so let’s say today you are starting a company you don’t have money you are taking full risk you not sure if this will work or this product is a market trend right so the first thing only is get your best buddy which i have you know abi he’s evacuating or maybe driving today good luck today i hope everything is safe and so you need to have your buddy with you who is willing to take an ideation phase because at that stage you’re not gonna have probably pretty much money to hire get external help you can take that but then you know external people you are hiring they will have different motivation they will have money as a motivation for if you are starting a company and money is the prime motive i would say you know when job you will be more successful more richer you know and it’s a kind of guaranteed shot in job so yeah that’s what my advice is i agree with you i agree with you a lot i feel like um i’ve heard i’ve heard people say oh well if you move to san francisco you can just get a job where you just get paid tons of money and like that that’s what it’s all about and um i’ve actually had some family members say or one of my closest friends said when will it be enough tanya and i was like what do you mean like do you think i have some number that i’m aiming for and it’s like no if i was doing that i would have just kept my old job right like because it would be a guaranteed way to get there and she’s like when are you going to retire i’m like dude i’m having the best time in my entire life what are you even talking about i’m like i’m young i’m a kid basically i’m middle-aged but yeah i oh i feel so much of what you’re saying and agree wholeheartedly i would like to ask the audience that is watching if you could click the things if you could click the thumbs up button if you are enjoying this video and also the subscribe button if you haven’t subscribed yet and right now i am going to put the link for ann shu’s company cloud defense dot ai underneath this in case you want to check it out so you can see it on his shirt but you can see it also right beside him on the screen and so um if you happen to be watching you want to check that out that would be cool but back to more questions what type of training do you think someone needs to be good at your job yeah yeah so you can be ceo of anything right so right now i’m heading the security company to have the job the first thing is you should be bought into your vision that’s the first thing you should believe in us that this is whatever you are making you know you really live and breathe and your customers get the customer feedback second one is the openness and those are personal to me like these things i have learned from my experience from my past success and by making this company as well which we are building you need to have open to ideas you i mean when i go to the room in the meeting you know i say i am the you know the most dumbest person in this room so please help me in educating like please guide me what do you want to see that’s the one that’s how people will open up i always say i don’t know nothing i do not know this can you help me then people will give you their 100 second thing is delegate when you start acquiring customers you can’t be everywhere so you need to have your trusted allies or with the right people in the right skill set into delegation like so that they can try last one is the feedback loop let’s say you know consistently evaluating how people in the role are performing how your customers are providing the feedback what you need to do and be open for change right consistent feedback loop that is the that is at least that has worked very well for me in the past and whatever you see that we have it’s like as a result of that i feel like to be a ceo and to do what you’re doing you have to be both confident but also humble like you want to hear what everyone else has to say but you also feel the confidence that once you have all the information that you can make the decision yes i totally agree so end of the day it’s your ship you know you need to sail it you know you need to own the decision so my my rule of thumb has been i own everybody’s failure and i get credit for all of the success to others but end of the day you know you need to own it you need to you need to sell it so last decision first when i go and their complex decision i go around the table ask everybody’s opinion everything but the last decision first of all when you go in this team setting there will be a decision it will be very obvious it will be based on data points but end of the day you are responsible so sometimes there will be situation where there will be time there is a disagreement then you need to take some decisions it could be hard decision it could be good for the company it could be any kind of decisions in french they say that you take a decision and in english we say that you make a decision and i’ve always felt the way they say it in french is better because sometimes you really are like taking the decision and yeah i i love that we have a question in the chat and it’s such a good one so it’s from nancy and it’s did you have a hard time delegating at first and what made it easier or is it still really hard yeah my gosh means when you’re starting up handing over your baby to someone you know your vision to someone you say they’re gonna mess up you know for sure because even though you feel like they’re expert but you feel you will get a feeling what if right what if they’re gonna mess up my whole life is at this stage so it’s a hard but you know as the company is growing your customer base is growing this is the need right you have to start delegating so the way i have done in the past is right you know talk to people put them in meeting let them lead guide them a little bit and then be independent even my last company hired car there were like you know five or ten layer of management chain i was on the chairman of the board so initially right from here i started coding you know created the everything then later on we ended up hiring 100 people i was just sitting in the board like a duck so that’s you know because but that’s your achievement that’s your success because other people are handling it so well yeah um i am in the same boat as you because i started my company just slightly after yours and i am starting to delegate things and so a thing we’ve been doing recently is discussing our core values as a company when we make a decision so if there’s a big decision coming sometimes we think about it like someone wanted to be an affiliate for us and we talked about it after and um the person was also a recruiter and we felt that was a conflict of interest and so we thought about it and we’re like well we really want to have integrity and it’s really important to us that we build trust with every single one of our customers and we’re like that doesn’t really go with our value of trust so then it felt like really easy to make that decision and so now they go off and they make the decisions based on the values did you set values for your company and do you yes yeah see you without value without vision you cannot be successful you can get short-term success but in the long term you need to have certain level of values so you need to have that trust so if you lose customer trust and i’m in security business right now if you know lose trust then good luck you know better to do something else so trust winning customers trust is plus your team’s trust right they should believe in you then only you’re gonna believe in them right first they should believe in your vision so acquiring earning trust or and the customer obsession right you should be crazy about your customer you should know what they like what kind of feedback you provide i think that those are the values and the foundation of a you know of a company successful company or the key values that i would highly recommend and those have worked very well for me yeah so smart so smart okay so i have one more question that’s kind of like related to that same chunk and then i’m going to ask still way more questions okay so so let’s say someone’s watching this and they’re like and she’s awesome i want to be a ceo too someday what type of work experience do you think they should try to get so that they could one day get up to that should they get a job at a startup um so i think you can it depends what your personal situation is so having this this is there’s a learning process right so what uh my last companies you know is built on last 10 years because i cannot discount the other failures right so yes in five years we were able to take the company from nowhere to nasdaq but before that what about that so you need to this is the process it’s a marathon it’s not a sprint it’s the you know what i said what i believe in like fail is we fail you can especially f a i l first is step in learning you know that’s the you know that’s the meaning of fail so you need to acquire the skill set how you can ski acquire that there are many channels right in your profession in your field you need to work with who are really really good into that really good you need to have like-minded people surrounding you you need to have those kind of friends with you who are you know for example if you are a startup word you need to have startup mentality people not like you know the employee mentality is great but they’re gonna talk about vacation or happy hour or something else founders they’re gonna talk about well let’s hear this idea and trust me you know no idea is bad if you don’t believe me look around your table pick a product you know whatever you are using there must be multi-million multi-billion dollar company right even the paint you know everybody has painted house right look at the companies only couple of companies multi-billion dollar companies there are opportunities everywhere in every field oh my gosh that was like that’s so good oh okay so i have to thank our sponsor thank you so much to thread fix the most stupendous vulnerability management system this side of the galaxy they have been so so so wonderfully supportive and we really appreciate that thank you yeah actually i love threads but i have more questions for you now sure oh i could totally talk to you all day and you know this because i have um so so let’s see um okay so actually here’s a good question does your job pay well so sometimes we talk about this as it relates to cheese um where i i joke that i knew that i’d made it as a software developer when i could afford to buy as many types of cheese as i wanted at the grocery store but now as a found up a startup founder uh i’m living off a lot of savings because otherwise i i would not be having any cheese if i was just living off my startup right now so yeah this is a great question tanya enough i think it’s my experience my experience or daily might be different for your experience or anybody’s experience but as i’m gonna reiterate that founders are not in for money initially right if you would be in for money this will never succeed trust me because you are starting with uncertainty there is nothing you are starting with your own money all of my past failures and last exit they started like this our own money so much uncertainty right now sitting right here in 2020 i look back you know 2014 when we started i could never imagine this will succeed right so founders job and founders you know it doesn’t pay well initially but you just have to make it once if you make it once all of your friends family you know who are in employment or some sort of good job they can i think it will be hard for them because you just have to collect it once if you click it once all of your past savings you know years that you wasted everything really well paid off i think that’s what my experience my guidance is yeah it’s so true sometimes when um when security people talk about offense versus versus defense they’ll say you know an attacker only needs to find one way in and it’s a lot easier to be an attacker than a defender because a defender has to defend against everything and although we see startups that fail all the time in a lifetime you can start so many companies and especially if you love it and you’re like putting your whole heart into it and like yeah as long as you’re not you know starving or something like you could still go my um one of my professional mentors her name is kim and she’s amazing and she told me she’s like okay tanya you have like children that are counting on you that you’re afraid you won’t be able to feed i’m like no i don’t have any dependents and she’s like do you have huge crushing debt and like collectors i’m like no like do you have enough savings that you could like just live for a few months or a year if you need to and i was like yeah and she’s like then why are there questions just jump girl just jump and then she opened up champagne and she’s just so awesome um but yeah like she’s like what is she’s like so so she’s like money’s for spending and if you’re gonna spend it on chasing your dream and you have a good plan and you’re not like you’re not like i’m gonna be a rock star even though i’m like 15 i’ve never learned an instrument before so that is a dream she’s like you have a plan yeah this is this is so true right this is so true means i have let them breathe into it you know you just need to believe yourself you know you don’t need much you don’t need much unless you know you if you have the same mentality it goes back to employmentally founder’s mentality what gonna happen you’re gonna burn your savings okay you’re gonna lose one year two years experimenting your idea you you know for only financially you might be taking your head a little bit more slowly as well you can always get a job you know you will get a better job whenever you need because you have more skill set than the employee at that level that’s what my feeling is my thought processes you you know what kim said she’s like tanya here’s the worst thing that can happen you work on your company for like a year or whatever she’s like you’re not spending a crap ton of money you live in an apartment right she’s like you just you act fiscally responsible i’m like okay that’s how i usually am and she’s like so worst case scenario you just get a job and she’s like you’re ridiculously qualified and she was just joking with me imagine if you tweeted hi i’m tanya Janca and i’m looking for a job she’s like the internet would melt i’m like shut up that’s not true and she’s like seriously it’s so hard to hire an abstech professional white vans will come up in front of your house and they’ll just shove you in and take you away yeah like you’re exaggerating bouncers they’ll send bounces to take you away to the company come here but yeah so when you think about it like that it’s like oh i just have all this career experience and all this technical and leadership experience like who wouldn’t want to hire you and if that’s like your secret like escape plan is i’ll just get an awesome job yeah and i would like to add whoever is listening believe in yourself what the worst people can do they can just take your money that’s it they cannot take your skill until you die right they cannot cannot nobody can see it government can take everything but they cannot take your skill set that is you that defines you yeah and someone will definitely definitely want to hire you as we’ve seen with covid like so many different industries are dying and tech is still exploding and yeah i am i am very confident that us tech people when we work hard are going to find places but speaking of which that leads me to the next question which is are there many opportunities for those in your line of work do you think that there there could be another startup opportunities are everywhere security especially what field you are in cloud security all of this with the evolution of the number of application number of hacks there are so many opportunities if you do some security course like tanya has some course we had purple or any kind of course right it is so much demand right you need to have the skill set there are so many this this field is exploding look at you know last recession 2010 people were saying you know cloud is going nowhere few people predicted cloud will be everywhere now we are in just second recession 10 years everywhere is a cloud right same thing in next 10 years security gonna be the thing because there are so many software so many application our lives are relying on the software so you know there’s plenty of plenty of opportunity all you need to acquire is a skill set oh yeah i’m within you yep okay so now now for my favorite question what do you like the best about your job yeah there are many things that i like the best first is like you know the feeling that you got this was your vision your baby one day you woke up or somehow idea came now so many people are following and they believe in you they are just fighting with each other i want to do this i disagree it’s a good feeling during higher car there were 100 people they were fighting this thing that thing said wow it’s good right because they are working for the thing that you laid out this stone so yeah that’s why there are so many good thing that you know i cannot even count on fingers you directly interact with interact with customers you directly deal with the product you listen to them you deal with the business you deal with the investors advisor literally with tanya yeah so many things that feeling where you’ve given your product to the customer and it greatly improves their security and like they see this huge positive impact that feeling must make you glow inside yes that that is the kind of wonderful moment that you just want to see that you know if this they would have been hacked what would have happened likes and you know their billion or a multi-billion dollar company will have a bad stain and they will be paying huge fines so that feeling that you are helping someone and you know ultimately to your customers who are have users you’re securing their their data their software their application it’s yeah oh it’s such i feel the same way like when you make this positive difference like for your customers but again like you said you make it for the customers but then that it folds down or it um trickles down to every single one of their users that then gets a more secure experience and then therefore is protected yeah yeah it boils down to users these large companies they have customers users right who are the ultimate users of the product yep okay so now i have to ask you the really hard question what do you like least about being a ceo yeah that’s a really hard question but based on my experience being ceo that means like you know you are responsible end of the day you know if there is some customer delivery and you are you know one of your guys don’t show up there’s no excuse right you need to you will be responsible you need to own it you need to figure out things however you like right so being available in every different thing and kind of solving the issue that’s kind of you know a little bit uh yeah a little bit it gets it gets you at some time but you know my experience has been you know just let it go movement you know we’ll figure out yes someone messed up but there’s always you know you can there are ways there are ways you can fix the things would you say um so so my least favorite thing honestly is just email like every single thing i kid you not if i could pay other humans twice as much as i pay myself i would be happy to do it if they would answer my emails but i but when i dissect that the real thing is decision fatigue so sometimes there are so many questions that come to me and like your willpower especially because you only have so much and then you run out so like if you get asked over and over again can i have this for free can i have your product for free and shoe can i have it for free can i can i have a raise can i have this do you ever get decision fatigue where you’re like ow oh yeah you carried almost every day oh my gosh what i’ve got into right so yes with the evolution of these technological tools which are communication tool which are necessary into a phone you need to whatsapp telegram slack skype email and always own culture so this is this is the way you know better we get used to of it yes if we can find the expert just to manage this it will be better but end of the day they cannot take certain level of decisions as well so you need to chime in yes they can just you know filter out what the most important thing that you need to take care of it but it’s still you know that’s the one of the things even i don’t like you know i have so many communication tools nice to be on those yeah no it’s it’s so true like slack discord i have people they’re like can i have your phone number i’m like no okay okay so on to more serious things what advice would you give someone who wants one day to be a ceo and if possible some actionable steps even if it’s just one that you feel like someone could take towards one day becoming a ceo that’s a tough question you got me i literally it’s the toughest question i’m sorry yeah so i think it depends so even in your job right let’s say you are in job or you know you are you are starting a company so in starting a company then becoming a ceo is easy if you’re in job you can also cast yourself or kind of you know create yourself to be in that kind of role being ceo means you lead by example let’s say you know wherever you are working there are other colleagues you know other colleagues as well so you need to you know they must be obviously you guys must be solving some business problems some sort of you can leave them you can leave them hey you know cheer them up go for lunch or socialize plus solve the problem together you don’t have to you know listen more talk less that’s one of the thing you know when you want to lead people so we have two years on mouth so we need to utilize that we need to listen more that’s what my advice is and obviously if you are if you have a company if you are starting up you can be ceo so but that mean you are responsible for every little thing yeah yeah i feel like um when i first got out of school i started my own startup company with some other students like literally one month out of school i was like this is all i’ve ever wanted to do and i did not understand how to be a ceo and i definitely needed to fire one of the other students but she was my friend and basically she was like literally the coolest person i knew um but she would also show up to like staff meetings with like a two for a beer and everyone would get drunk and so yeah i know right and like she was so cool and like no one would do any work because awesome krista was there and so like i needed to fire her but i was just like but she’s so cool and so now that i’m older i’ve gained a lot of perspective and so i feel like maybe you just also need to have some work experience as well like just generally before you can jump into it or or maybe i just jumped wrong the first time but yeah i like your advice yeah i mean definitely if you are in some trade or profession or you know i.t you need to have that level of expertise you know you can talk anything people are going to believe in you you need to be talking you know based on the data factor talking data points will always help you talking to the data points whatever statement you are making it should be supported by data you know data is the key and this going to be next 10 years as well or 20 years yeah if you are going to suggest a resource to people listening so someone’s like i want to start my own product company in one to two years from now i’m so excited like do you have like a book or a video or a course or um or anything that you could recommend that you think might help them learn a bit yeah so personally uh what has helped me you know when you want to start over so doing some survey that’s how i did you know gather you know just talk throughout some idea listen to people’s opinion second is the most important resource which has worked very well for me is that you know hackers news my commentators so they publish so many so many articles so much of advice from paul graham sam altman so follow that and it will start opening your mind opening your brain it’s it’s a journey it’s not gonna happen overnight the more data you digest more people you talk to bounce off the ideas i think you will get more clarity and trust me no idea is bad you can make a billion dollar company just look around you know wherever you’re sitting the company is the product that you are using probably they are multi-billion dollar companies that’s such a good way to look at because i am looking all around my room and i’m just like there’s a hair elastic and this is literally my favorite hair elastic company and i will go from pharmacy to pharmacy to get this exact brand because it doesn’t like tug on my hair and i bet these people are very rich if i will spend time every six months when i have broken all of them it’s such a good point because i never thought of it that way okay so now i have not hard questions so do you do things outside of infosec outside of your job that you want to share and if so what do you have like a fun hobby uh yes i have weird hobbies i’m a student pilot i’ve been learning flying single engine planes small you know cessna a little bit you know i i say it you know you don’t have to trust me on this people say whoever fly that there are more accident happens on the car not by flight right not by single engine plane you might disagree with that but once you start flying these are kind of statements that you’re gonna start making just to satisfy you there’s also way less airplanes in the sky and therefore the idea of one airplane touching another airplane is so much more rare there are accidents on the car on the roads so you need to justify it so initially it was very scary but i enjoyed it after now i got busy and my wife and kid they lay down on the road they hide my bag and headphone they don’t let me go because you know even though you convince them there are you know i can die while driving the car next weird hobby which i plan after cloud defense and i’m gonna do it i wanna learn helicopter just a little harder oh my gosh that’s so cool that’s so cool my my uncle used to work for he’s a programmer and he used to work for defense for canada and he designed a whole bunch of their helicopter simulator software you should totally check it out because it is hard he’s like i still can’t fly a helicopter after all this time it’s hard it’s hard but you know i want to someday but isn’t that the thing that makes it desirable is that it’s difficult right it is yeah so initially it is difficult you know you there’s nothing it’s kind of tin you know like just a 10 box that you are flying in but once you are up in the air you feel so liberated you can go this way that way you can go to canada you can go to me it takes time it’s not you know your airbus or you know boeing it it just goes 100 mile per hour and it’s like starting a lawn mower if you have ever started lawn mower you just pump it up try it it will start but once you are in the sky right the experience can go around there is no one around you know have you ever gone skydiving i guess is sort of the opposite of becoming a pilot yeah yeah i think it’s a little bit positive so yeah i have avoided that but yeah i did it i hated it like i absolutely was like this is the worst thing that’s ever happened to me and i know people are supposed to be like it was so awesome i was like oh my god when will this awfulness be over yeah it’s a little bit of paradox i’m afraid of heights but you know i still you know once you’re up in the sky you get a hang of single engine plane then even though you unless you look at you know really out of your window it feels like nothing yeah that’s amazing i wonder if the reason why you’re interested in flying and then trying a helicopter is the same reason that you’re interested in starting companies and being a founder because you want to have this big huge challenge don’t chase it yeah i don’t know means up i just like it maybe i have you know some wiring confusion here some wiring is wrong in my brain i think it’s so cool i really do i think it’s super cool okay so the last question for you is if someone wants to know more about you or about cloud defense how can they follow you or find out more yeah just you can tweet it you can reach out to tanya or you can hit our website or you can email me at a bandsaw cloud defense or ai there are many ways you know yeah twitter don’t give out your phone number don’t do it i’ve seen too many people be like yeah i’m gonna give out my phone no don’t do it you’ll be part of 50 000 whatsapp groups before you know it oh my gosh oh my gosh what’s up groups with like more than three people no oh thank you so much for being on my show anshu this has been so awesome i really i love that i got to quiz you with questions and that you got to share it with the audience we already have six thumbs up so people were watching and if you are watching and you missed it click the thumbs up if you liked it and subscribe and then go visit cloud defense.ai and then immediately after go visit threadfix our sponsor and denim group who make thread fix so that’s even better um and then visit wehackpurple.com and sign up for all of our courses yeah look at me at marketing yes um but with that i’m going to say goodbye to you thank you so much for being on the show i really appreciate it and i’m going to do the wrap-up and credits that i always do thank you thanks sonia for having me appreciate it thank you bye so everyone that was wait wait here’s this there we go that was anshu benzal from cloud defense and an excellent excellent episode where i felt he just shared so many good secrets about how you can build up yourself until you’re a founder i really felt like he shared a lot of really good details and also just like personal intimate stories that help you become a part of infosec that’s the purpose of this podcast is that we want more people in information security including you dear listener if you are listening right now i’m not kidding i wish that you were part of infosec if you aren’t already there are so many unfilled spots of various jobs all around the world and we need you and that’s why we started this podcast so that you could learn about what it’s like to do all the different jobs um i want to thank my friends at cloud defense for being on the show i want to thank thread fix and i want to thank the amazing team that i have at we hack purple i can’t tell you what it’s like to have the backing of a super duper awesome amazing team it is a pleasure it makes me look amazing and smart all the time because i have five individuals helping me look that way so thank you to my team and with that i’m tanya Janca the host of the we hack purple podcast and i will see you next week where we have let me look at our amazing guest list we have oh my gosh i totally memorized this before i came on and then now i forget it’s embarrassing and i have it open in like four different windows there we go next week we have on tyrone wilson who is also going to talk to us about being a cyber security champion um and president of a cyber security company they do consulting and i’m very interested in learning more about that and the following week we have with kim crowley and she is a cyber security researcher and writer and she’s going to tell us all about that the following week november 19th we’re going to have shira shamband of saluto of solo sorry afsalvo and she’s going to tell us all about what it’s like to found a technical company and what it’s like um from the other side of the ocean so she’s in israel and there’s a lot of things that are quite different there following that we’re going to have tutsi and which i know i’m saying wrong but she is a security engineer and she’s totally awesome i worked with her at microsoft and i’m super excited to have her on the show not only so we can hang out but also that you can learn from her and with that i am out i am tanya Janca this is we hack purple podcast thank you for listening